Tag Archives: Recessions and depressions

S&P 500 closes out dismal year with worst loss since 2008

Wall Street capped a quiet day of trading with more losses Friday, as it closed the book on the worst year for the S&P 500 since 2008.

The benchmark index finished with a loss of 19.4% for 2022, or 18.1%, including dividends. It’s just its third annual decline since the financial crisis 14 years ago and a painful reversal for investors after the S&P 500 notched a gain of nearly 27% in 2021. All told, the index lost $8.2 trillion in value, according to S&P Dow Jones Indices.

The Nasdaq composite, with a heavy component of technology stocks, racked up an even bigger loss of 33.1%.

The Dow Jones Industrial Average, meanwhile, posted an 8.8% loss for 2022.

Stocks struggled all year as inflation put increasing pressure on consumers and raised concerns about economies slipping into recession. Central banks raised interest rates to fight high prices. The Federal Reserve’s aggressive rate hikes remain a major focus for investors as the central bank walks a thin line between raising rates enough to cool inflation, but not so much that they stall the U.S. economy into a recession.

The Fed’s key lending rate stood at a range of 0% to 0.25% at the beginning of 2022 and will close the year at a range of 4.25% to 4.5% after seven increases. The U.S. central bank forecasts that will reach a range of 5% to 5.25% by the end of 2023. Its forecast doesn’t call for a rate cut before 2024.

Rising interest rates prompted investors to sell the high-priced shares of technology giants such as Apple and Microsoft as well as other companies that flourished as the economy recovered from the pandemic. Amazon and Netflix lost roughly 50% of their market value. Tesla and Meta Platforms, the parent company of Facebook, each dropped more than 60%, their biggest-ever annual declines.

Russia’s invasion of Ukraine worsened inflationary pressure earlier in the year by making oil, gas and food commodity prices even more volatile amid existing supply chain issues. Oil closed Friday around $80, about $5 higher than where it started the year. But in between oil jumped above $120, helping energy stocks post the only gain among the 11 sectors in the S&P 500, up 59%.

China spent most of the year imposing strict COVID-19 policies ,which crimped production for raw materials and goods, but is now in the process of removing travel and other restrictions. It’s uncertain at this point what impact China’s reopening will have on the global economy.

The Fed’s battle against inflation, though, will likely remain the overarching concern on Wall Street in 2023, according to analysts. Investors will continue searching for a better sense of whether inflation is easing fast enough to take pressure off of consumers and the Fed.

If inflation continues to show signs of easing, and the Fed reins in its rate-hiking campaign, that could pave the way for a rebound for stocks in 2023, said Jay Hatfield, CEO of Infrastructure Capital Advisors.

“The Fed has been the overhang on this market, really since November of last year, so if the Fed pauses and we don’t have a major recession, we think that sets us up for a rally,” he said.

There was scant corporate or economic news for Wall Street to review Friday. That, plus the holiday shortened week, set the stage for mostly light trading.

The S&P 500 fell 9.78 points, or 0.3%, to finish at 3,839.50. The index posted a 5.9% loss for the month of December.

The Dow dropped 73.55 points, or 0.2%, to close at 33,147.25. The Nasdaq slipped 11.61 points, or 0.1%, to 10,466.48.

Tesla rose 1.1%, as it continued to stabilize after steep losses earlier in the week. The electric vehicle maker’s stock plummeted 65% in 2022, erasing about $700 billion of market value.

Southwest Airlines rose 0.9% as its operations returned to relative normalcy following massive cancellations over the holiday period. The stock still ended down 6.7% for the week.

Small company stocks also fell Friday. The Russell 2000 shed 5 points, or 0.3%, to close at 1,761.25.

Bond yields mostly rose. The yield on the 10-Year Treasury, which influences mortgage rates, rose to 3.88% from 3.82% late Thursday. Although bonds typically fair well when stocks slump, 2022 turned out to be one of the worst years for the bond market in history, thanks to the Fed’s rapid rate increases and inflation.

Several big updates on the employment market are on tap for the first week of 2023. It has been a particularly strong area of the economy and has helped create a bulwark against a recession. That has made the Fed’s job more difficult, though, because strong employment and wages mean it may have to remain aggressive to keep fighting inflation. That, in turn, raises the risk of slowing the economy too much and bringing on a recession.

The Fed will release minutes from its latest policy meeting on Wednesday, potentially giving investors more insight into its next moves.

The government will also release its November report on job openings Wednesday. That will be followed by a weekly update on unemployment on Thursday. The closely-watched monthly employment report is due Friday.

Wall Street is also waiting on the latest round of corporate earnings reports, which will start flowing in around the middle of January. Companies have been warning investors that inflation will likely crimp their profits and revenue in 2023. That’s after spending most of 2022 raising prices on everything from food to clothing in an effort to offset inflation, though many companies went further and actually padded their profit margins.

Companies in the S&P 500 are expected to broadly report a 3.5% drop in earnings during the fourth quarter, according to FactSet. Analysts expect earnings to then remain roughly flat through the first half of 2023.

U.S. stock markets will be closed Monday in observance of the New Year’s Day holiday.

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Elon Musk says a global recession could last until the spring of 2024

Tesla Inc CEO Elon Musk attends the World Artificial Intelligence Conference (WAIC) in Shanghai, China August 29, 2019.

Aly Song | Reuters

Tesla founder and CEO Elon Musk thinks the global economic decline can last for another year and a half.

In a Twitter exchange early Friday morning Eastern time, the mercurial electric car executive and world’s richest man said a recession could continue “until spring of ’24.”

The remarks came in response to a tweet from Shibetoshi Nakamoto, the online name for Dogecoin co-creator Billy Markus, who noted that current coronavirus numbers “are actually pretty low. i [sic] guess all we have to worry about now is the impending global recession and nuclear apocalypse.”

“It sure would be nice to have one year without a horrible global event,” Musk replied.

Tesla Owners Silicon Valley, a Twitter account with nearly 600,000 followers, then asked Musk how long he thought the recession would last, to which he replied, “Just guessing, but probably until spring of ’24.”

Global GDP grew 6% in 2021 but is expected to decelerate to 3.2% this year and 2.7% in 2023, according to the International Monetary Fund. That would mark the weakest pace of growth since 2021 outside of the financial crisis in 2008 and the brief plunge in the early days of the Covid pandemic. The Federal Reserve projects GDP in the U.S. to grow just 0.2% this year and 1.2% in 2023.

Musk becomes the latest corporate titan to express reservations about the economy.

In a tweet Wednesday, Amazon founder Jeff Bezos said it’s time to “batten down the hatches” in preparation for rough economic waters ahead. That tweet accompanied a video of Goldman Sachs CEO David Solomon, who said in a CNBC interview that he thinks there’s a “good chance” of a recession in the U.S.

JPMorgan Chase CEO Jamie Dimon also has been warning of economic turmoil ahead.

Musk’s comment also came amid a rough week for Tesla stock as the automaker missed revenue estimates and cautioned about a potential delivery shortfall this year.

During the analyst call, he expressed more confidence in the U.S. economy than other parts of the world. He did note the impact that interest rate increases are having on the economy.

“The U.S. actually is in – North America’s in pretty good health,” he said. “A little bit of that is raising interest rates more than they should, but I think they’ll eventually realize that and bring back down, I think.”

However, he said China is in “quite a burst of a recession of sorts” driven by the real estate market, while Europe “has a recession of sorts, driven by energy.”

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Amazon founder Jeff Bezos warns it’s time to ‘batten down the hatches’

Amazon CEO Jeff Bezos speaks during the UN Climate Change Conference (COP26) in Glasgow, Scotland, Britain, November 2, 2021.

Paul Ellis | Reuters

Amazon founder Jeff Bezos has become the latest corporate leader to warn about the state of the economy, cautioning that rougher times are likely ahead.

In a tweet posted Tuesday evening, the former president and CEO of the online retailing giant echoed comments that Goldman Sachs Chief Executive David Solomon made to CNBC earlier in the day.

“Yep, the probabilities in this economy tell you batten down the hatches,” Bezos said in a comment attached to a clip of Solomon’s “Squawk Box” interview.

Solomon, the head of the Wall Street financial giant, said it’s time for both corporate leaders and investors to understand the risks building up, and to prepare accordingly.

Solomon spoke after his firm had just posted quarterly earnings results that beat Wall Street estimates. Yet he said a recession could be looming as the economy deals with persistently high inflation and a Federal Reserve trying to lower prices through a series of aggressive interest rate increases.

“I think you have to expect that there’s more volatility on the horizon,” Solomon said. “Now, that doesn’t mean for sure that we have a really difficult economic scenario. But on the distribution of outcomes, there’s a good chance that we have a recession in the United States.”

Fed officials have also been warning that a recession is possible as a result of the monetary policy tightening, though they hope to avoid a downturn. Policymakers in September estimated that gross domestic product would grow just 0.2% in 2022 and rebound in 2023, but to only 1.2%. GDP contracted in both the first and second quarters this year, meeting a commonly held definition of a recession.

There have been mixed signals lately from corporate leaders.

JPMorgan Chase CEO Jamie Dimon has been warning of troubles ahead, saying recently that the situation is “very, very serious” and that the U.S. could slip into recession in the next six months.

However, Bank of America CEO Brian Moynihan told CNBC on Monday that credit card data and related information show that consumer spending has held up.

“In the current environment, the consumer is quite good and strong,” he said on “Closing Bell.”

Moynihan acknowledged that the Fed’s efforts could slow the economy, but noted that “the consumer’s hanging in there.”

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Treasury yields tumble for a second day, with 10-year rate below 3.6%

Treasury yields fell across the board for a second day Tuesday as traders weigh actions from central banks going forward.

The benchmark 10-year Treasury was down 6 basis points to 3.587%, after having surpassed the 4% mark last week. The yield on the policy-sensitive 2-year Treasury fell 5 basis points to 4.045%.

Yields and prices move in opposite directions and one basis point equals 0.01%.

The moves appeared to be helping the stock market, as futures traded sharply higher Tuesday. Stocks also rallied Monday.

Markets also continued to absorb the unexpected decline of the U.S. Purchasing Managers’ Index data for the manufacturing sector, which measures factory activity.

That comes as the Federal Reserve maintains a hawkish tone about interest rates hikes, with speakers from the central bank emphasizing that lowering persistent inflation is a top priority for them.

Various Fed speakers are due to make remarks on Tuesday, which traders will pay close attention to in light of growing fears of a recession brought on by rate hikes being implemented too quickly.

Tuesday will also bring insights into the labor market as job openings data for August is released.  

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BofA predicts breakout in mergers due to downcycle

Mergers in software may be about to break out.

Top investment banker Rick Sherlund of Bank of America sees a wave of struggling companies putting themselves up for sale at cheaper prices due to the economic downturn.

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“You do need to see greater capitulation,” the firm’s vice chair of technology investment banking told CNBC’s “Fast Money” on Thursday. “Companies will have their valuation expectations soften, and that will combine with more fully functional financial markets. I think it will accelerate the pace of M&A [mergers and acquisitions].”

His broad analysis comes on the heels of Adobe’s $20 billion dollar deal Thursday for design platform Figma. Adobe failed to generate excitement on Wall Street. Its shares plunged 17% due to questions about the price tag.

Sherlund, a former software analyst who hit No. 1 on Institutional Investor’s all-star analyst list 17 times in a row, worked at Goldman Sachs during the 2000 tech bubble. He believes the Street is now in the beginning stages of a difficult market cycle.

“You need to get through third quarter earnings reports to feel confident that maybe the bad news is largely out into the market because companies will be reporting lengthening of sales cycles,” he said. “We need to reset expectations for 2023.”

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Sherlund and his team are very active in the M&A market.

“You have private equity with a boatload of cash, and they need functioning debt markets for leverage to do deals,” Sherlund noted. “They’re very eager and actively looking at this sector … It suggests that [for] M&A, in absence of an IPO market, we’re just going to see a lot more consolidation coming in the sector.”

He notes the IPO has been hurt in connection with rising interest rate headwinds and inflation.

“[The IPO market] is not open. But when the window does open back up, you are going to see a lot of companies going public,” he added.

The long-term prospects for software are extremely attractive, according to Sherlund.

“You’ve got to be very bullish on the long-term fundamentals of the sector,” Sherlund said. “Every company is becoming a digital enterprise.”

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U.S. needs miracle to avoid recession, economist Stephen Roach warns

Negative economic growth in the year’s first half may be a foreshock to a much deeper downturn that could last into 2024.

Stephen Roach, who served as chair of Morgan Stanley Asia, warns the U.S. needs a “miracle” to avoid a recession.

“We’ll definitely have a recession as the lagged impacts of this major monetary tightening start to kick in,” Roach told CNBC’s “Fast Money” on Monday. “They haven’t kicked in at all right now.”

Roach, a Yale University senior fellow and former Federal Reserve economist, suggests Fed Chair Jerome Powell has no choice but to take a Paul Volcker approach to tightening. In the early 1980’s, Volcker aggressively hiked interest rates to tame runaway inflation.

“Go back to the type of pain Paul Volcker had to impose on the U.S. economy to ring out inflation. He had to take the unemployment rate above 10%,” said Roach. “The only way we’re not going to get there is if the Fed under Jerome Powell sticks to his word, stays focused on discipline, and gets that real Federal funds rate into the restrictive zone. And, the restrictive zone is a long ways away from where we are right now.”

Despite the Fed’s sharp interest rate hike trajectory, the unemployment rate is at 3.5%. It matches the lowest level since 1969. That could change on Friday when the Bureau of Labor Statistics releases its August report. Roach predicts the rate is bound to start climbing.

“The fact that it hasn’t happened and the Fed has done a significant monetary tightening to date shows you how much work they have to do,” he noted. “The unemployment rate has got to go probably above 5%, hopefully not a whole lot higher than that. But it could go to 6%.”

The ultimate tipping point may be consumers. Roach speculates they will soon capitulate due to persistent inflation. Once they do, he predicts the pullback in spending will reverberate through the broader economy and create pain in the labor market.

“We’re going to have to have a cumulative drop in the economy [GDP] somewhere of around 1.5% to 2%. And, the unemployment rate is going to have to go up by 1 to 2 percentage points in a minimum,” said Roach. “That would be a garden variety recession.”

‘Cold war’ with China

The prognosis abroad isn’t much better.

He expects the global economy will also sink into a recession. He doubts China’s economic activity will cushion the impact, citing the country’s zero-Covid policy, serious supply chain backlogs and tensions with the West.

Roach is particularly worried about the U.S. and China relationship, which he writes about in his new book “Accidental Conflict: America, China and the Clash of False Narratives” due out in November.

“In the last five years, we’ve gone from a trade war to a tech war to now a cold war,” Roach said. “When you’re in this trajectory of esclating conflict as we have been, it doesn’t take much of spark to turn it into something far more severe.”

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Wage inflation, used car prices could jump higher: Jim Bianco

Washington’s efforts to curb inflation will fall short particularly this year, according to market forecaster Jim Bianco.

And, he believes this week’s key inflation data will help prove it.

“I don’t see anything that will reduce the inflation rate. There are some things that might reduce prescription drug prices and maybe a couple of other things,” the Bianco Research president told CNBC’s “Fast Money” on Monday. “But will that bring down CPI? Will that bring down core CPI to a point where we can actually start pricing that in? No, I don’t think so.”

The government releases its Consumer Price Index [CPI], which tracks prices people pay for goods and services, for July this Wednesday. Dow Jones expects the number to come in at 8.7%, down 0.4% from June. The headline number includes energy and food, unlike Core CPI. On Thursday, the government releases its Producer Price Index [PPI].

Bianco contends peak inflation may still be ahead.

“Inflation is persistent. Is it going to stay 9.1%? Probably not. But it might settle down into a 4%, 5% or 6% range,” he said. “What does that mean? We’re going to need a 5% or 6% funds rate, if that’s where inflation is going to settle.”

There’s no near-term solution, according to Bianco. As long as wage numbers come in hot, he warns inflation will continue to grip the economy.

“Wage inflation, from what we saw in the report on Friday, is at 5.2% [year-to-year], and it’s looking pretty sticky there,” Bianco said. “If we have 5% wages, you can pay 5% inflation. So, it’s not going to go much below wages. We need to get wages down to 2% in order to get inflation down to 2% and wages aren’t moving right now.”

‘If you’re not going to pay extra for that car, then you’re going to have to walk’

Bianco lists used car prices as a major example of relentless inflation. He believes high sticker prices won’t meaningfully budge for months due to demand, supply chain issues and chip shortages forcing automakers to reduce features in new cars.

“If you’re not going to pay extra for that car, then you’re going to have to walk because that’s the only way you’re going to get a ride right now,” said Bianco.

According to the CarGurus index, the average price for a used car is $30,886, up 0.2% over the past 90 days and 10.5% year-over-year.

“Used car prices in the last 18 months have actually outperformed cryptocurrencies,” he added .”It’s been one of the best investments that people can have.”

Bianco expects the Inflation Reduction Act, which was passed by the Senate this weekend, would have a negligible impact if it’s enacted.

“A lot of this stuff doesn’t kick in for another couple of more years,” Bianco said. “In a world where we want to know what the Fed is going to do in September and when inflation is going to peak, those are ’22, ’23 stories. Those are going to continue to dominate the markets.”

The House is expected to vote Friday on the legislation.

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Market jump after Fed hike is ‘trap,’ Morgan Stanley warns investors

Morgan Stanley is urging investors to resist putting their money to work in stocks despite the market’s post-Fed-decision jump.

Mike Wilson, the firm’s chief U.S. equity strategist and chief investment officer, said he believes Wall Street’s excitement over the idea that interest rate hikes may slow sooner than expected is premature and problematic.

“The market always rallies once the Fed stops hiking until the recession begins. … [But] it’s unlikely there’s going to be much of a gap this time between the end of the Fed hiking campaign and the recession,he told CNBC’s “Fast Money” on Wednesday. “Ultimately, this will be a trap.”

According to Wilson, the most pressing issues are the effect the economic slowdown will have on corporate earnings and the risk of Fed over-tightening.

“The market has been a bit stronger than you would have thought given the growth signals have been consistently negative,” he said. “Even the bond market is now starting to buy into the fact that the Fed is probably going to go too far and drive us into recession.”

‘Close to the end’

Wilson has a 3,900 year-end price target on the S&P 500, one of the lowest on Wall Street. That implies a 3% dip from Wednesday’s close and a 19% drop from the index’s closing high hit in January.

His forecast also includes a call for the market to take another leg lower before getting to the year-end target. Wilson is bracing for the S&P to fall below 3,636, the 52-week low hit last month.

“We’re getting close to the end. I mean this bear market has been going on for a while,” Wilson said. “But the problem is it won’t quit, and we need to have that final move, and I don’t think the June low is the final move.”

Wilson believes the S&P 500 could fall as low as 3,000 in a 2022 recession scenario.

“It’s really important to frame every investment in terms of ‘What is your upside versus your downside,'” he said. “You’re taking a lot of risk here to achieve whatever is left on the table. And, to me, that’s not investing.”

Wilson considers himself conservatively positioned — noting he’s underweight stocks and likes defensive plays including health care, REITs, consumer staples and utilities. He also sees merits of holding extra cash and bonds at the moment.

And, he’s not in a rush to put money to work and has been “hanging out” until there are signs of a trough in stocks.

“We’re trying to give them [clients] a good risk-reward. Right now, the risk-reward, I would say, is about 10 to one negative,” Wilson said. “It’s just not great.”

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Atlanta Fed GDP tracker shows the U.S. economy is likely in a recession

Federal Reserve Chair Jerome Powell reacts as he testifies before a Senate Banking, Housing, and Urban Affairs Committee hearing on the “Semiannual Monetary Policy Report to the Congress”, on Capitol Hill in Washington, D.C., U.S., June 22, 2022. 

Elizabeth Frantz | Reuters

A Federal Reserve tracker of economic growth is pointing to an increased chance that the U.S. economy has entered a recession.

Most Wall Street economists have been pointing to an increased chance of negative growth ahead, but figure it won’t come until at least 2023.

However, the Atlanta Fed’s GDPNow measure, which tracks economic data in real time and adjusts continuously, sees second-quarter output contracting by 1%. Coupled with the first-quarter’s decline of 1.6%, that would fit the technical definition of recession.

“GDPNow has a strong track record, and the closer we get to July 28th’s release [of the initial Q2 GDP estimate] the more accurate it becomes,” wrote Nicholas Colas, co-founder of DataTrek Research.

The tracker took a fairly precipitous fall from its last estimate of 0.3% growth on June 27. Data this week showing further weakness in consumer spending and inflation-adjusted domestic investment prompted the cut that put the April-through-June period into negative territory.

One big change in the quarter has been rising interest rates. In an effort to curb surging inflation, the Fed has jacked up its benchmark borrowing rate by 1.5 percentage points since March, with more increases likely to come through the remainder of the year and perhaps into 2023.

Fed officials have expressed optimism that they’ll be able to tame inflation without sending the economy into recession. However, Chair Jerome Powell earlier this week said getting inflation down is the paramount job now.

At a panel discussion earlier this week presented by the European Union, Powell was asked what he would tell the American people about how long it will take for monetary policy to tackle the surging cost of living.

He said he would tell the public, “We fully understand and appreciate the pain people are going through dealing with higher inflation, that we have the tools to address that and the resolve to use them, and that we are committed to and will succeed in getting inflation down to 2%. The process is highly likely to involve some pain, but the worse pain would be from failing to address this high inflation and allowing it to become persistent.”

Whether that turns into recession is unknown. The National Bureau of Economic Research, the official arbiter of recessions and expansions, notes that two consecutive quarters of negative growth isn’t necessary for a recession to be declared. However, since World War II there never has been an instance where the U.S. contracted in consecutive quarters and was not in recession.

To be sure, this tracker can be volatile and swing with every data release. However, Colas noted that the GDPNow model gets more accurate as the quarter progresses.

“The model’s long-run track record is excellent,” he said. “Since the Atlanta Fed first started running the model in 2011, its average error has been just -0.3 points. From 2011 to 2019 (excluding the economic volatility around the pandemic), its tracking error averaged zero.”

He further noted that U.S. Treasury yields have taken note of the slower growth prospects, falling significantly over the past two weeks.

“Stocks have taken no comfort from the recent decline in yields because they see the same issue portrayed in the GDPNow data: a US economy that is rapidly cooling,” Colas added.

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Kevin O’Leary says there’s no evidence of a recession right now

The U.S. economy is much stronger than people think, and there’s “no evidence” of an impending slowdown or recession yet, says celebrity investor Kevin O’Leary.

I’m not saying we won’t get one, but everybody that’s saying it’s coming around the corner next week is just wrong,” he told CNBC’s “Squawk Box Asia” on Thursday.

“There’s no data, there’s no evidence, there’s no numbers, there’s no inclination on the consumer to slowdown yet,” he said.

The chairman of O’Shares ETFs said he’s invested in a wide range of sectors, from commercial kitchens and wireless charging to gym equipment and greeting cards. And he hasn’t seen “any indication” of a recession.

“I see their tear sheets each week. We don’t see slowdown yet,” he said, referring to a document summarizing key information about a company. “I think I’ll be one of the first to see it. I’m sort of a canary in the coal mine in that respect.”

He said consumption is still doing well at the moment.

U.S. GDP declined 1.5% in the first quarter of the year despite strong consumer spending because of weakness in business and private investment.

Tough call

There are two reasons why it’s difficult to predict a recession, O’Leary said.

The first is that $4.5 trillion dollars were added to the U.S. economy in the past few years “from a helicopter, into the hands of consumers and businesses all over the land.”

That’s an unprecedented amount of money pumped into the system, he said.

“I deal with numbers each week, of what the consumer’s buying with the money they have, they’ve been given so much of it in the last three years and I’m not in the camp that says a dramatic recession,” he added.

I don’t believe we’re into a wicked recession yet. Not yet.

Kevin O’Leary

Chairman of O’Shares ETFs

Second, technology has boosted productivity.

The direct-to-consumer model is now being used in every sector of the economy, which means higher gross margins and more customer data for companies. It’s far more efficient and productive, O’Leary said.

“Those that are really saying we’re going to get a massive recession could be wrong and be missing returns as this market slowly claws its way back,” he said.

Soft landing

“I’m erring on the side of a soft landing in terms of my investment strategy,” the “Shark Tank” investor said.

He said everyone thinks the central bank is out of control, but he’s of the view that Fed Chair Jerome Powell is in a “pretty good shape” trying to balance inflation and employment.

Even if there are signs of a slowdown or a recession, that risk already appears to be baked into share prices given the major corrections in many indexes, O’Leary pointed out.

“Everybody that’s telling me it’s the end of the free world as we know it is not looking at the data,” he said, adding that some private companies he’s invested in have had “spectacular quarters.”

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The economy will slow down at some point, but he said he hasn’t seen it yet.

“I trust numbers, not talking heads. I get talking heads all day long telling me what they think is going to happen. I look at the numbers. Numbers don’t lie. Cash flow doesn’t lie. That’s what I care about,” he said.

“Talking heads make noise. Cash is cash,” he added.

Not everyone agrees.

Former Fed Governor Robert Heller said the U.S. is “very close to a recession,” pointing to the contraction in the first quarter and signs that there will be no growth in the second quarter. A recession is defined as two consecutive quarters of declines.

“We’re perilously close to that because we are looking at zero growth for the second quarter. The smallest negative influence will tip us actually into a technical recession,” he told CNBC’s “Capital Connection” on Thursday.

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